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| The following summary minutes have not been approved by Simpsonville City Council. An official copy of the minutes will be available after adopted by City Council at City Hall 118 NE Main St. Simpsonville. Pursuant to the Freedom of Information Act, notice of this meeting date, time, place and Agenda was posted on the bulletin board at City Hall and faxed to the newspapers, radio stations, television stations and any concerned citizens. |
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SIMPSONVILLE CITY COUNCIL MINUTES SPECIAL VOTING SESSION March 27, 2007 6:30 P.M.
CALL TO ORDER: Mayor: I call the March Workshop of Simpsonville City Council to order. I’d like to welcome you all here tonight. It looks like we’re expecting trouble – we’ve got all these blue uniforms in the back there. But we’re glad to have you all to. Ms. Bodkins would you call the roll please.
ROLL CALL: Ms. Bodkins: Yes sir: Councilmember Bridges: Here Councilmember Garrett: Here Councilmember Lawrence: Here Councilmember Gecy: Here Councilmember Zitricki: Here Councilmember Larson: Here Mayor Waldrop: Present
Mayor: Thank you.
INVOCATION: Mayor: Is there anyone here who would like to ask blessings upon this meeting in your own personal way. All right, Council Member Bridges would you ask blessings upon this meeting in your own personal way please.
PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
CITIZEN COMMENTS Mayor: Okay, we always begin our meetings by inviting our citizens to speak to us and if you call ahead and ask to be placed on the Agenda we’ll give you a full four minutes to fuss about anything you want to or compliment us about anything you want to. If you signed up when you came in tonight we’ll give you two minutes to do that. We did have someone sign up tonight. And I’m sure he’s here to compliment us on all that we do. So Mr. Perry Eichor.
• Perry Eichor – One of the things I’m here to talk about, my wife asked me to mention to the council as a whole – is that better now. I normally don’t have to speak into one to be heard. You had a Spring Stroll last Saturday here in Simpsonville and it was very successful. And part of the reason that it was successful was the efforts of the Police Department. They did an outstanding job. They provided safety for the children that was there and all the merchants that were downtown were very happy with it. So I think you need to give them a few Kudos for that. It’s a good deal and we appreciate it. And I notice they didn’t have a lot of notification about that and they were still able to pull it off. That’s good. The children were impressed with their showing. My other thing is I understand you’re going to discuss take home patrol cars. My past experience shows that the concept of take home vehicles, patrol cars in other words, is very successful. The reason for that is I’ve been involved in about 4 or 5 agencies that had them. All the way from an agency that had 5 cars, all the way up to an agency that had 400. Past experience shows that this thing works out because there is often a higher initial cost, but this is off-set by the long-run savings that far exceeds this initial cost. The program results in less damage to the vehicles because of vehicle abuse. Results in better scheduled normal maintenance. Also results in lower replacement turn-over. The officers begin to accept personal responsibility for the care and upkeep of the single vehicles. Routine inspections show that the condition of the car, will show the condition of the car and it would become very easy to ascertain if the officer is taking proper care of the vehicle. Response time for recall of officers for emergency actions is greatly decreased. The visibility of the patrol cars in the neighborhoods increases the security of the citizens there. Often the above reasons allow the force to downsize the vehicles to smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles, that are more job specific, rather than having larger vehicles to stand the rough wear put on a vehicle that is used 24 hours a day 365 days a year. Which is a great total and when you have different people operating the same vehicle it just doesn’t stand up, because everybody operates it differently. One person does it one way and another a different way. And that probably takes care of my two minutes.
Mayor: Well it does. Thank you for that and I’m sure Chief Reece will get you a check in the mail.
Mr. Eichor: You saw me talking to him but I did not speak to him about this and I still don’t know whether he’s for or against it.
Mayor: Well of course for your benefit and the Minutes, I was joking.
Mr. Eichor: I’ve heard that before.
Mayor: All right, thank you Mr. Eichor.
COUNCIL COMMENTS Mayor: All right, next on the Agenda is Council Comments. This is where we all get to talk. Ms. Lawrence.
Ms. Lawrence: Yes sir, Mr. Mayor thank you. Mr. Hawes I have a list – a speed bump request list of every house but two on Westwood Drive and a couple in the cul-de-sacs so the next step is what.
Mr. Hawes: First of all we have that list and we’ve generated a map that identifies in fact what you said, all the parcels except for two have been – are in favor of speed humps. We have a proposed speed hump program that I believe that City Council has seen regarding the implementation of a speed hump program. The only issue there is how the funding or how the City would participate in the installation of these has got to be decided by City Council or indicated to me by City Council how we want to allocate funds for that.
Ms. Lawrence: Well can we – let’s get a price – you know if you could – or somebody could figure out how many bumps we need and get us a price for our next meeting.
Mr. Hawes: Yeah, I mean I received that document today and we created a map and
Ms. Lawrence: Yeah, I did to.
Mr. Hawes: identified – so the next step would be to get an idea for exactly what the cost would be and then to propose to City Council how we might want to either share that cost or bare that cost as a City.
Ms. Lawrence: Okay, thank you. Now I know we had a discussion about Davenport Road and I know it’s a separate project all on its own. But I would like you to explain why it needs to be a separate project and not on our street list.
Mr. Hawes: Well it originally was one of the roads that was considered part of the over-all needs of the City. I think it still is being considered as one of the over-all needs of the City.
Ms. Lawrence: Oh, most definitely
Mr. Hawes: The deterioration is really secondary however on that road to the fact that it’s under-designed for what it’s carrying. It needs to be upgraded beyond just resurfaced. So, what that road really needs is re-engineering with regard to its shoulders and that separates it from a standard re-surfacing project. It needs to be considered differently. One way to take that type of a project on is with C-Funds, possibly through the matching program. So, and we do have indications that the match program is going to be continued this year as we had suspected, so we’re excited about that. But, that project is really a stand alone project for those reasons.
Ms. Lawrence: Okay, and so would the match project – when could we look forward to starting on this –
Mr. Hawes: The match project will actually go into its inception after July 1 most likely. At that point if the City decides to participate, which I believe all indications are that the City would, it would be up to the City to propose what we want to do with that match, with that project, with that program per se. And that could certainly be one of the item indicated.
Ms. Lawrence: Okay. Thank you. The codes I know we’re the hold up but when do you intend on putting the codes back on the Agenda.
Mr. Hawes: Perhaps Mr. Holmes could better answer that question because he and I discussed that.
Mr. Holmes: It had originally been planned to be on your workshop Agenda tonight, but I have gotten no comments from anyone since our meeting a few weeks ago, so I took it off to make certain no one had any other comments. The next time it will be on your Agenda it will be on for a vote. Unless you want to put it off for
Ms. Lawrence: You have my comments
Mr. Holmes: I understand.
Ms. Lawrence: I’d like to get it put to bed.
Mayor: Okay, is that it.
Ms. Lawrence: Yes sir, that was all I had.
Mayor: All right, great. Anyone else. Mr. Larson.
Mr. Larson: I just wanted to make a couple of quick comments. I couldn’t agree with Mr. Eichor more on his comment about the Police Department and I appreciate you stepping up and making those public. I think this past week our entire City had a chance to shine as far as the Police and the Fire Department handling the power outages on Grandview and then Robbie Davis and Joe Carter did an outstanding job with their folks at the Little League Opening Day at the park. I heard so many comments about what a spectacular park it was and how nice it looks. So I think every one of our City Departments did a great job this week.
Mayor: Thank you. All right, next. Mr. Gecy
Mr. Gecy: Mr. Hawes the Hunters Woods sewer issue – the report I have – the flow monitoring report and I’m sure you’ve seen it. I hope you have. What do you take from what we learned about the flow of the capacity in the Hunters Woods line. Where are we going with that.
Mr. Hawes: The report you have I assume is the latest one from the Frazier Engineering. Two weeks ago they pulled the unit. What I take from that is that line is currently carrying less than what theoretically it had indicated it was carrying at that point. That doesn’t mean that we don’t need to address it. It means we still need to observe and determine a course of action. Part of that course of action involves re-routing of the Arbors, which we’re working with engineers on right now. So, it’s an on-going project.
Mr. Gecy: It seems like every time we test this problem we find out we have a less of a problem some way. Does our staff agree with this finding from Frazier. Does our staff agree with the….
Mr. Hawes: As far as I understand, without having staff here to comment, I understand that Joe Carter the Director of Public Works fully agrees with it. I mean, I don’t know how you can disagree with numbers that are derived through –
Mr. Gecy: Well we all know that there’s a capacity and there’s
Mr. Hawes: material evidence is I guess what I was trying to say
Mr. Gecy: Well I know but we’ve already gone through the idea that we’re 300% over capacity and now we’ve got plenty of room for thousands of more gallons. Are we still in that wide range of interpreting numbers on these sewer lines.
Mr. Hawes: As we get more and more information in the more educated we are toward the actual situation.
Mr. Gecy: Well let me give you an example – this report says that during peak flow there’s 233 gallons of sewage being pumped from the Arbors at that manhole. And then it says 250,000 gallons is going through the 8 inch Hunters Woods line. Now that right there disqualifies this whole report, because if you read this report and take anything out of it it’s incorrect. I mean you can’t assume that 233 gallons is coming from the Arbors manhole and only 250,000 gallons is going through the 8 inch Hunters Woods. There’s a whole lot of sewer coming from the other side that’s not even counted on this if this is correct. I mean you’ve got Ruby Tuesday’s and Kohl’s and the whole other side coming into that 8 inch line and if this is just what’s coming out of that pump station from the Arbors, I don’t think that’s right, but that’s what it’s saying. And he had 233,000 gallons at a peak flow on any given day, and it says only 250,000 going through the 8 inch line. Sure it doesn’t look like a bad problem. Our question though is numbers, it’s not anything of what we’ve heard. So either they’ve made a misprint – I don’t know how you can – can you possibly explain that.
Mr. Hawes: We can look into and get a further statement from Frazier Engineering as to how those numbers play out. But those are what were supplied after 5 weeks of analysis from what I understand.
Mr. Gecy: Okay, well that’s something I want to see. In other words if 250,000 gallons is going through Hunters Woods line, and 230 gallons is coming from that Arbors line, from that pump station, you mean to say that there’s only less than 20,000 gallons coming from the rest of the basin, Wal-Mart, Kohl’s, Ruby Tuesdays and all that side of Fairview Road that comes back to that line. These numbers are skewed and therefore that would make those percentages skewed.
Mayor: Let’s have Frazier come and explain
Mr. Hawes: We certainly can.
Mr. Gecy: I mean that’s just confusing to me if we’re going to use the result of those numbers at least what builds to get to that edge has got to be correct.
Mayor: Excuse me, I don’t dispute what you’re saying – that is a good question to be asked. But if you think about it there’s a lot less flushing going on over at Kohl’s and places like that than there are up at the Arbors where all those apartments are.
Mr. Gecy: Okay. I’m just saying that that doesn’t look like the numbers that we had that was going through that line to start with. And if you think that much is coming from that Arbors line.
Mayor: Well let’s get the engineers to
Mr. Hawes: Yeah. I mean they’re the ones who took the empirical data so I’m sure they can explain what they’ve come up with.
Mr. Gecy: Somebody also told us we were 300 capacity over and we obviously went and got another report from that. So I don’t believe these numbers until we hire somebody else to go and get something different. But nonetheless I’d like to move on thanks.
At our last meeting, all of you got a copy of this letter. I want to read this letter for the record. We were in Executive Session – we began to discuss an issue that I felt needed to be voted on and I made my intentions known to the Mayor that I thought we should come out of Executive Session and go vote on this particular issue which involved a position at City Hall, whether or not for it to become a full time position right now or not. And there was some consensus both ways in Executive Session and of course we all assumed that we weren’t supposed to vote in Executive Session. I’d like to read this letter.
Mr. Mayor I’ve taken a week or so to consider this issue and I have come to the conclusion that you and Councilmembers Bridges, Larson and Garrett violated at least a common rule of respect and possibility of violation of our Freedom of Information Act and if this were not such a serious issue it would be almost hilarious in that this occurs right after you declared this Sunshine Week, a movement to let the sun shine on government and encourage open, transparent discussion. I am appalled that you would be so discourteous to deny a request to record our concluding business meeting. You had every idea as to what my motion was going to be and you and the above named councilmembers saw fit to adjourn without giving me the opportunity to exercise that option. You knew we were on our way upstairs. David Holmes and I were in the hallway, our parliamentarian. We were already in the hallway. Mike and Geneva were in a discussion with Russ and you accepted a motion to adjourn. This is inexcusable behavior. Although we did not agree on the solution to the question you made it very clear that you and the others had voted in Executive Session not to make this position immediately full time. By your denial - by your denial of my intent you allowed this direction to stand. The discussion of whether to make this a full time position or not needed to be an open session discussion. And I went on to say that I did not know who to appeal to. I was consulting the Municipal Association and also Mr. Jay Bender. But the only people that I think that you can appeal to is you voters and you citizens because this is an illegal way to conduct business. And I feel that there is nobody, I don’t think, that I can even talk to about this. I asked our City Administrator. I told him what my question was and he admitted that he didn’t even know what went on. He was talking to two councilmembers and I was on my way upstairs with the City Attorney. So I guess the only fair question at this point is, if you adjourned our meeting that night, where is the minutes, who made the motion, how did the vote go and who was present when you did it.
Mayor: Well the key here is we voted unanimously, which included your vote to go out of Executive Session. So we were out of Executive Session – when you come out of Executive Session you come back into Regular Session and then all this required was a vote to end the meeting or end the session. There was a motion made, there was a second, there was a vote taken, you were standing just outside the door. I yelled and said hey we’re taking a vote in here a motion has been made. You did not step back in the room as you indicated in one of your letters that you were down the stairway, which you weren’t you were standing just outside the door. You had the opportunity, you chose not to vote I guess.
Mr. Gecy: I actually disagree with that.
Mayor: Well the majority voted and
Mr. Gecy: The majority voted to adjourn – do you realize that your City Attorney was in the hall as well.
Mayor: Absolutely
Mr. Gecy: Did you know that your City Administrator was in a conversation with two other councilmembers. So as long as you had your four votes you could care less what went on is that what you’re saying Mr. Mayor.
Mayor: That’s not true at all. That’s an accusation
Mr. Gecy: You took 4 votes –
Mayor: That’s an accusation
Mr. Gecy: You and Mr. Larson voted and you knew – you know what you said Mr. Mayor when we were kind of laughing and you guys giggled walking out. You said well you just didn’t make the motion. You knew what my intention was and you said you know we might just make a motion to do nothing. Did you not say that.
Mayor: That’s an accusation based upon your anger because you didn’t get some opportunity to
Mr. Gecy: An opportunity as an elected councilmember to make a motion
Mayor: Well, but your one of 7 so you know one vote of 7 when 4 others vote –
Mr. Gecy: But didn’t you take that right away from me by not coming back up here
Mayor: I did not take that right
Mr. Gecy: I asked you put on
Mayor: I did not take any rights
Mr. Gecy: Well let’s put it this way when we come out of Executive – when we have a meeting from now on I request that it all be recorded, either by tape recorder downstairs or come back up here and put it on. Mr. Holmes do you have an opinion on this.
Mr. Holmes: I have an opinion that the only Motion you can make in Executive Session is the Motion to Adjourn and the motion was made to adjourn. But I was in the hall with you as you said when there was another motion to adjourn the meeting and go home.
Mr. Gecy: What do you think the motivation was – do you like being part of a council, as our parliamentarian, being in the hallway when your council is voting – what’s your opinion on that.
Mr. Holmes: Mr. Gecy, I’m your lawyer, I’m the lawyer for the City
Mr. Gecy: Well your our parliamentarian to
Mr. Holmes: I understand that and and as I explained to you if a motion was made and if it carried – I wasn’t there so I can’t – I can’t comment on what happened in a room when I was not there – but I was outside with you when that motion was made.
Mr. Gecy: I know that. Mr. Hawes you were talking to two councilmembers and 4 councilmembers conduct business. Does that bother you?
Mr. Hawes: Does it bother me?
Mr. Gecy: Yeah, bother you.
Mr. Hawes: I couldn’t really tell you. I mean it happened. Does it bother me – I don’t know. I was talking when the vote occurred.
Mr. Gecy: Where is the record of that vote. Who made the motion and how did the vote go and who was present when the vote was taken.
Ms. Bodkins: I couldn’t tell you off the top of my head
Mr. Gecy: So you don’t know.
Mr. Bodkins: I couldn’t tell you off the top of my head – I’ll have to take the motions. I normally ask Mr. Hawes who made the motion to adjourn and who seconded.
Mr. Hawes: The motion as I remember the motion was made by Mr. Larson and seconded by Mr. Bridges.
Mayor: That’s correct. We may have an answer for you here.
Ms. Lawrence: Well the only thing is are those minutes on line because it said I made the motion and I did not.
Ms. Bodkins: Well then it just went because
Ms. Lawrence: Well I mean that’s the normal – this is the first time since I came on council that I have not been asked to make the motion. So that might tell you something.
Ms. Bodkins: Well that could be – your names on there because it’s always on there
Ms. Lawrence: Yes
Ms. Bodkins: But Mr. Hawes will generally tell me if you didn’t come back upstairs and put it on a recording he will generally tell me any business that happened after you came out of Executive Session.
Mr. Gecy: All I want to add to that was Mr. Mayor you knew that I intended to make a motion to bring this to a vote. I felt like we needed to vote on that issue. We didn’t agree but we are allowed not to agree. That’s my accusation that we agreed in Executive Session. You all agreed at something in Executive Session, so obviously in your minds you were convinced that you did not want me to bring this up.
Mayor: Well you’re assuming a lot there aren’t you.
Mr. Gecy: Well all of the result proves what I’m saying.
Mayor: I am sorry that you’re offended – what else have you got. What’s your next item.
Mr. Gecy: That’s it. I was waiting for you to say that Mr. Mayor. I’ve hade enough.
Mayor: All right good. Anyone else. Yes Mr. Zitricki
Mr. Zitricki: I’ve got a question for Mr. Hawes. Mr. Hawes look at the budget that we had given to us last meeting from 2-1 to 2-28. This is very difficult to keep things in order. I was reading some e-mails back from the – our accountant and Ms. Lawrence and I have to agree this is very difficult to follow. Some of these questions that were asked I don’t understand some of the answers here. Is there something else that we can use to put an easier to understand report together. I heard something called CSI is available to us. Can we use that.
Mr. Hawes: Certainly
Mr. Zitricki: I would like us to start using that reporting system to generate the budget so we can follow line items and see where the money is being spent.
Mr. Hawes: That’s no problem at all. I don’t know that it’s an easier to understand report or not but we can certainly provide it for you.
Mr. Zitricki: It can’t be any more difficult than what we have right now. So let’s get that going for this budget
Mr. Hawes: What about what you have right now is difficult. I need to know so that we can make sure that we don’t
Mr. Zitricki: On the first page the PARD Report says we had $25,000 budgeted and it was only $7,000. So there’s an error right there. Some how it was put in as a gross overstatement. And then back on the expenditures line item number 10-881-301 under grant expenditures it has zero for budget and then we have $12,487 for a year to date expenditure. How does that happen.
Mr. Hawes: It happens because that grant was received separate after the budget was completed. That will be remedied in a budget amendment which will occur toward the end of this fiscal year.
Mr. Zitricki: Well this is my contention here I can’t see this.
Mr. Hawes: But CSI wouldn’t show you any different
Mr. Zitricki: We need to do something different than what we’re doing right now because nothing’s clear on this.
Mr. Hawes: Nothing?
Mr. Zitricki: A lot of things aren’t clear – let me restate that.
Mr. Hawes: I’ll be glad to look into it
Mr. Zitricki: I would appreciate that.
Mayor: Okay. Anyone else. Mr. Gecy
Mr. Gecy: What is CSI for the public’s sake and for ours.
Mr. Hawes: CSI is our accounting software.
Mr. Gecy: Okay, is it recommended that we use that – is that a municipal type accounting system
Mr. Hawes: Absolutely
Mr. Gecy: I yield
Mayor: Ms. Lawrence
Ms.
Lawrence: Well CSI’s been around for over 20 years.
And actually that’s what this is – that report is generated by CSI Mr. Hawes: Yes, generated by CSI
Ms. Lawrence: But the problem comes when you have mis-codings and when you have a lot of unbudgeted accounts in here. You have accounts without budgets. And that’s where I have a problem. And then when it transfers to this spreadsheet. In accounting I think one of the first things they teach you is the less you mess with the numbers the better off you are. You run a risk of transposing. So taken them from this and putting them in the spreadsheet – you know who knows – I think Ron might back me up on that that the more you mess with numbers the more you
Mr. Hawes: Let me tell you what the intent of the spreadsheet is if I could. That is for a quick overview and clarification because CSI doesn’t produce anything along those lines.
Ms. Lawrence: I’m sorry but it does
Mr. Hawes: It does
Ms. Lawrence: It’s just that unfortunately some of our staff has not taken the problem to learn the software. And it does produce everything that you’ve got here.
Mr. Hawes: In that concise a format
Ms. Lawrence: Yeah. It’s all done into codes – how you code your stuff is how it picks it out.
Mr. Hawes: Yeah I know but I think the Finance Director is attempting to assist council in their understanding by identifying where through the budget year we are – percentage of the way through and compares to actual – he separates out the capital – to me it’s an eminently understandable format. The spread sheet portion. I understand and fully agree that when you pull numbers out you can have what’s the word – the terminology you used – transposition or whatever. I agree. But I think that he has done on the front page only to clarify in a snapshot format where each department is in comparison to where they should be through the year less capital. Because capital may occur at any time through the year and could throw the numbers off hugely. And you understand that I know.
Ms. Lawrence: Well yeah, I understand that but – it would seem to me to be very important to make sure this is correct first. And when you have a $120,000 mis-coding that you then put on your spreadsheet then you know
Mr. Hawes: I agree that is one
Ms. Lawrence: I mean to me those should be completely reviewed and those kind of mistakes picked up certainly before it’s sent to council and the public. That’s all.
Mr. Hawes: Well the Finance Director was not aware that that was miscoded until you brought it to his attention.
Ms. Lawrence: But he should have looked at it before he sent it to us. I mean, I’m sorry that’s one of his jobs.
Mr. Hawes: No, I don’t disagree with that.
Mayor: You okay. All right, anyone else. All right thank you all for your comments. Next is New Business and we have some visitors tonight.
NEW BUSINESS: • EPA – Air Quality Presentation Mayor: Mr. Kevin Robinson with the Greenville County Planning Commission and he’s brought two of his distinguished cohorts with him and they’re going to tell us about how to make our air pure and clean and keep it that way. And we appreciate you folks coming back. I understand this is your second appearance and we appreciate your coming back again.
Mr. Owings I’m on the staff of the Greenville County Planning Commission. I’m an assistant to the County Administrator . We’re involved with Air Quality problems facing, not just Greenville County , Mauldin, all the Municipalities in the County, plus Pickens, Spartanburg . Oh good thank you. That’s much better. Thank you. All the counties in the upstate, but we’re focusing mainly on Greenville County ’s issues. Air quality we all notice today when you look at your car it’s covered with yellow pollen and lots and lots of people are affected by that. But it’s only seasonal. There are other air quality issues that people who have respiratory disease, emphazema, those people are affected at a much lower threshold than the majority of the population. EPA developed air quality standards called the National Ambient Air Quality Standards and every community, every county must meet those standards or suffer some consequences. And that’s what I’ll try to explain in this presentation. It shouldn’t take but just a moment or two. Two of the issues we’ll talk about are ozone and particulate matter. We call it PM 2.5. And I’ll explain just what that means in just a moment. Of the many air quality issues facing the United States the two that affect us most are ozone and PM 2.5. Well I’m going to have to pound this mouse to get it to work. Our purpose of this meeting and a number of meetings like this is to begin to raise awareness of the issue. Dennis has served on our Air Quality Steering Committee for a long time is probably very aware of it. Some of you may have read, heard, but for the purpose of tonight’s meeting we’re meeting with all municipalities and lots and lots of groups is to begin to raise the level of awareness for those who have to make public policy decisions. It’s going backward on me now. Let me just go directly to the computer, I’m sorry.
In 1990 the Congress passed the National Ambient Air Quality Standards. EPA will designate an area non-attainment if we don’t meet those ambient air quality standards. What are those standards? There’s 7 measured pollutants. 5 of them we’re not anywhere near to close to violating them. But ozone and PM 2.5 we are very close to violation. Much of the country that’s in violation is in the southeast. High temperatures, warm summers, high humidity, make it more of a problem for us than other parts of the state. For ozone technically we are declared non-attainment and I’m picking up a little reverb from – probably too close to that mic. The other one is PM 2.5 particulate matter. Particulate matter is the very very ultra fine particles that are in the air. SCDHEC monitors - I will speak very loudly. In the upstate area there are monitors in Long Creek that’s way up in Pickens County . It’s considered a back ground monitor. It’s not near any source of pollution. It monitors westerly winds coming in from Chatanooga and Atlanta and the general prevailing winds from the west. Then there are monitors in Clemson, the one in Powdersville is going to be moved. The site has been sold. There’s one to the north at a Spartanburg fire station and one in Cowpens. Those are the predominant monitors for the Upstate. This is what our monitor looks like and it measures a number of different things. The two main things it monitors for us are ozone and the PM 2.5. If we’re declared non-attainment, which technically we are right now, but the penalties are not in place. There are two main things that happen. One is called transportation conformity laps, that means we’re not in conformity – it has an affect on the spending of money for highway projects. And the other is called new source review permitting. Any time new business, new industry wants to put a smoke stack, not necessarily a great big one but just a small smoke stack furnace or heating area they have to get a new source permit. Well right now during – in the penalty phase we can’t use federal highway funds for preliminary engineering, highway design, right of way or to let new contracts. You have to go through a process to prove to EPA and the federal highway administration that whatever project we want to do either reduces ozone or does not contribute to make it any worse. It makes a widening of an I-85 or 385 makes those projects very hard. Intersection improvements, traffic signal timing, things like that are more easily proven to benefit ozone or help us reduce it. Economic impacts of new source review – an industry thinking about locating in Greenville County, be it BMW or any similar, they may elect not to either expand here or locate here if we’re in non-attainment, because new source review for their permits and lots and lots of red tape to go through in order to get your EPA and DHEC permits. So we want to for those two reasons, economic and transportation we want to avoid it and from a health standpoint those – all of us in general, but those who have health problems that’s the main reason that EPA has passed these regulations. Ozone, we all hear about it – it protects us from the suns rays. Why are we worried about ozone. Well ozone that’s up in the stratosphere is the protective ozone layer. Ozone at the ground level does not migrate up. It stays at ground level. What causes ozone? There’s only a season for it – like April – really May through August, but April through September is our expanded monitoring season. When it’s very hot you get a lot of what’s called nox. Oxides of nitrogen produced by predominantly by automobiles mixed with very high temperatures is when we will see smog ozone. That’s when it’s at its highest. Sources of nox as we call it, oxides of nitrogen, utilities are about 28%, transportation, cars, trucks, that’s the area that’s producing the most nox. Now the other thing that mixes with oxides of nitrogen under these high temperatures is called VOC’s – volatile oriented compounds. When you open a can of turpentine or your pumping gasoline you can smell it. They’re volatile, their organic, they rise into the atmosphere. Ozone is produced by high temperatures in the presence of oxides of nitrogen and VOC’s. This red line indicates the 8 parts per billion that we’re allowed in ozone. These are the monitoring sites and at this point we are below the federal parts. These lines are a little deceptive they look like they’re a long way off but they’re really when they’re compressed they’re very very close. We’re just staying in attainment. PM 2.5 – particulate matter. You can’t see it – it’s very very fine. It’s a complex mixture of extremely small particles. Much, much smaller than the pollen that’s in the air now. It’s found in smoke and haze. Sources where the PM 2.5 come from, sulphates, carbon – carbon comes from fires, sulphates come from agricultural activities, putting fertilizers on lawns, things like that will produce the PM 2.5. The reason it is so irritating to the lungs is it’s not filtered out through the nose or the throat it will be ultra, ultra fine particles will get inhaled very deeply into the lungs and for those who have emphazema or bronchitis, PM 2.5 is a real issue. Most people affected, children and elderly, people particularly outdoors and are very active outdoors. You will see from time to time the message board on I-385 going into Greenville it will say ozone alert day. Normally we’re in the good to moderate. We have not had a very unhealthy alert day in some time, but we do have a system that we send e-mails. DHEC sends e-mails particularly to those who are signed up for it so tomorrow they’re just like forecasting rain they forecast the ozone or high PM 2.5 days. There’s an index for ozone and a separate index for particulate matter. It tells you what to avoid doing such as very strenuous activity outdoors particularly on the very high alert days. There are a number of sites where you can go on a web site, but the main one, the simplest one to remember is www.greenvillecounty.org . And all the related sites to EPA and DHEC are found under our web site. And you go to our web site and that’s where you can see the ozone forecast like this one showing up is green is a good forecast. What we’re trying to do is meet with any group that we can. Particularly, lined up to meet with all the municipalities, let city councils know and give them resources. We passed out a bag with some T-shirts and one of the things that we’re involved in besides this issues, our public awareness is a program called B Square School – B2 for be better at school. And Sandra Eustes has been very involved with that. Ft. Inn Elementary School has elected to be our test school. They’re going to have signs put up – you want to explain this or do you want me to explain it. I’ll let Sandra do this – she did all the work.
Sandra: Basically there would be a group of students who would be wearing these vests – like a safety patrol vest, but instead it’s going to be the Air Quality Control group and we would put up signs – signs for vehicles and for buses. What the children will do is they are putting together data prior to implementing the program – then next year when they come back we have a full implementation of the program. This is the type of program that other schools will be adopting to make it a county wide program. And the reason is because at that age at elementary school age the lungs in the kids are still developing and we want them to have healthy lungs. Basically in a nutshell that’s what this program is about. We are also trying to minimize the size of lawn mowing areas. The school when they expanded it there is a courtyard inside the building that was going to be grass – we on a grant from EPA we’re going to fund that to be a garden instead of having sod or grass. The kids are going to have a garden. What we are trying to do is minimize emissions from lawn mowers.
Mr. Owings: I’ll wrap up with when we were faced with this issue we were allowed to join into – we were in non-attainment mathematically – EPA said you can join into what’s called an early action contact. That is instead of EPA coming in and saying you will do this you will do that they said you choose your own solutions and implement them. Folks like Dennis have been involved with it. We had 23 strategies. The big ones have been done. The conversion of a plant in Belton from what’s called low nox boilers to the biggest nox producer in the Upstate is now much, much reduced. TransCo pipeline compressor plant in Duncan, very very large producer of nox. They retooled all of their compressors with what’s called nox control compressors. Big ticket items like that, low sulfur fuel – the producers of gasoline in the Louisiana coast. Not that we had anything to do with it but those big ticket items have really, really helped. We’re now down into the small things. The public awareness campaigns. We equate this to probably 25 years ago recycling. Nobody thought anything about putting an aluminum can in a recycling bin. But elementary schools kids begin to do it – hey dad don’t throw that in the garbage can – put it in recycling. So a lot of us have turned the bin on recycling. We’re just in the first stages of maybe turning the bend making public awareness of air quality. But that went on longer than I meant to. I’ll answer any questions that you have.
Mayor: Does anyone have any questions for John or any of these people. Well I only have one the low sulfur fuel – has that reached our area yet.
Mr. Owings: Yes sir. Gasoline was at about 330 parts per million sulfur. EPA required that it get down to between 7 and 15 parts per million. They had to do that by 2007. Katrina had some affect on that with demolishing some of the refining capacity but we are now at the point where fuel is being pumped from Louisiana all the way to New Jersey . Everybody on I-85 fills up with basically the same fuel and it’s now down very close to that 15 parts per million and now starting in 2007 through 2008 and 09 diesel fuel will come down from 3,000 parts per million to about 7 or 15 parts per million. Getting the sulfur out of the air is one of the components that affects catalytic converters on cars and just getting it out of the air and some particulate matter to it – it’s a much much better thing to happen. So they’re not under any of our controls. EPA is requiring them but it’s going to benefit us.
Mayor: Great, thank you very much for your time and for coming back down again. And I know everybody punches out at 5:00 at County Square so you get kudos from us for coming down tonight.
• Incident Notification Procedure Mayor: Okay, next on the Agenda under New Business is Incident Notification Procedure. Mr. Hawes
Mr. Hawes: Yes sir Mayor and Council, the City in review of some of its procedures has identified a way of letting council know about certain incidences that happen that may involve media representation or things along those lines. I know a couple of council members asked me exactly what is our procedure on our incidents and how council will be notified and how the Department Heads have it and so forth. And this is for your information basically. This is our existing procedure. It works very well. This is something that we really put into place after an incident in September of last year in the Hunters Woods community. So, this has worked very well since. E-mail notification on council members, this was used as a matter of fact at the latest situation here in Simpsonville where the power lines went down after a car accident. Council was notified because the e-mail was down they were notified by telephone actually. So and a lot of the phones in the City were down so they were notified by cell phone. Actually Pam used her cell phone to call everybody. So really just for your information and we feel it’s a very important aspect of what we do to make sure city council is aware when something happens in the City that you should know.
Mayor: Okay, thank you Mr. Hawes. Anyone have any questions about that. All right.
• Quarterly Update Mayor: Next item is your quarterly update.
Mr. Hawes: Yes sir, at our Strategic Planning Retreat it was suggested that we do quarterly updates of where we are in progress with a number of projects and plans and activities that the City is engaged in and I’m glad to present to you right now our first quarterly update. We’re at the end of the first quarter of the fiscal year. I didn’t wait three months after the planning retreat, the calendar year not the fiscal year. So I just want to keep it where it will be the last workshop of the quarter and give you a quarterly update.
First of all – first part of the update is I want to commend our police force our fire department as well for how they handled the situation last Wednesday along Grandview Drive . They did an excellent job. I know the Chief himself spent a huge amount of hours out there making sure the situation was contained and safe for everybody. They involved themselves very closely with the School District and making sure the children could get home to houses that were otherwise inaccessible. They coordinated with the West Side Church in using it’s parking area as a staging area basically for incident management and it went very smoothly. Duke Power, Verizon and the Cable Company all came out and did their work with minimum interruption and able to do it efficiently and effectively because of the efforts of our police and fire departments. I also want to commend the West Side Church for their assistance and commend their service to the community in feeding our public servants, our police and fire, public works who were out on the site for many hours preserving the health and safety of the community. The West Side Church community came together and took care of them. So I really want to thank them as well. With regard to the project downtown –
Mayor: Excuse me just a minute before you move forward I would – I think everybody up here would probably like to add our thanks to the police department and the fire department. I got several compliments on the way you folks handled the situation over there and kept traffic flow – even though some were somewhat irritated that they couldn’t get home to their supper – I think they understood that but I’ve received several compliments about the way you folks handled the traffic and they way you handled the whole situation. So I think all of us up here would like to offer you thanks for that. So didn’t want to let that get buy. Excuse me Mr. Hawes go ahead.
Mr. Hawes: Well certainly they did their job very well. Regarding the streetscape project downtown. There was an issue with the Duke Power 3 phase line, just outside City Hall as to how we were going to be able to connect the underground utilities to that pole. We have resolved that. We met with Mr. Tony Kellett of Duke Power last week and indicated a scenario where we can get back underway with placing the conduit under the sidewalk and we’ll be back at that within about 6 days. Six working days – sometime early next week most likely. We’ll start back with the placement of the conduit under the sidewalk. We’ll actually have a section of it finished I expect in about a week. The part right out in front of City Hall we expect to have finished.
Mayor: So is there any hope of getting that project back on schedule and catching up. And once it gets started again we’re going to see continuous action,
Mr. Hawes: Well I can’t say it will be continuous because we’ve got Freedom Weekend Aloft. There will be a break for Freedom Weekend Aloft, but we’re going to get back on schedule absolutely.
Mayor: Well it’s become somewhat of an embarrassment because I have people asking, and I’m sure other council members do to. What happened, we saw you out there digging and cutting and blocking driveways and then all of a sudden it went away and of course we all tried to explain it to them but it’s still – you know appearances are everything. So maybe we should begin a public information campaign to let people know exactly what’s going on when it sort of stalls for a while.
Mr. Hawes: We can certainly do that.
Mayor: Okay, thank you.
Mr. Hawes: The gateway corridors project which is an extension of the streetscape regarding the decorative lighting extending to Fairview Road and to W. Georgia Road Bridge – those lights are being ordered as we speak, basically by Duke Power. Those are going to be matching the bridge lights and the downtown lights that are going in the streetscape project. We’ve got about 80 lights that are on order that will be 125 feet on center down both of the roads into downtown. So it will be a really nice corridor project beyond just the enhancement project.
With regard to some development coming to the City – we have been – a proposal to the Planning Commission is in right now for apartments along South Street . It will be 240 market rate apartments that are going to be in the property that is immediately adjacent to corporate drive across from Bailey Heating and Air and so forth in that area. These are going to be quality apartments from all indications. The Planning Commission is going to hear this soon. I just want to make you all aware of that because there had been some rumors about that particular apartment proposal was going to be a HUD type project, a section 8 or something along those lines and it is not it’s going to be market rate with a pool clubhouse and so forth. So we can put rumors to rest.
With regard to the logo and positioning study that we’re doing right now. We’ve had an exploratory discovery meeting and we’re now in the process of putting together focus groups for communication and marketing processes that will be involved in helping to develop the logo and the positioning and marketing of the City. These are going to be underway in the next 2-3 weeks as a matter of fact. So if you all know some folks who are interested in participating in this process we’re looking at 3 or 4 different groups that would look at certain aspects of the city that could be marketed or positioned in certain ways – then I’ll be glad to take any names you all would like to submit. So please – the consultants are working on that and are working for folks who want to get involved. We’re real excited about how that’s progressing as well.
Speaking of Freedom Weekend Aloft earlier – the amphitheater is progressing dead on schedule. We’ve got conduit being laid about 2800 feet of conduit right now in the amphitheater area alone. We’ve got two transformers coming in from Duke Power to handle all the stage power and the lighting for the amphitheater. We’ve ordered 30 decorative lights that will match those out at Heritage Park , the deluxe acorn style. It will be throughout the amphitheater to provide a consistent lighting style and affect throughout the park. Sewer and water have been totally installed, irrigation is underway. The road has been graded. The new road that goes beside the amphitheater has been graded and we’ll be laying gravel on that very soon and we have acquired all the property that we need for parking. So – and we’re beginning to upfit that as well – some of the pieces of that parking puzzle. We’re real excited about that and the transportation plans have virtually been finalized and we have a final meeting tomorrow with the parking consultants that will be working with Freedom Weekend Aloft to make sure that we have the exact ingress and egress aspects taken care of to maximize traffic flow into and out of the event.
Arts and Cultural Master Planning is underway as well. I know we talked about the Arts and Cultural Center and moving into a master planning process. That’s underway – we’re working with the architectural firm, Craig, Gaulden and Davis to do some further structural and mechanical, air conditioning, electrical analysis right now to develop a master plan for the best use of that building whether we need to turn around the front entrance to the rear and build a drop-off loop, I think that’s most likely what we’re going to end up coming to a conclusion on. That will be a true amenity to the City and we’re real excited about that as well. And I’ll keep you apprised on that as we go along.
The MID – the Municipal Improvement District for Fairview Road – we continue to work with DOT. As a matter of fact I have a request into our State Engineer to do a (TAPE SWITCHED SIDES) if we can get some buy in from them with regard to placing any turn movement rotations on Fairview Road . Or if we may be able to approach it without limiting turn movements. If we can strategically place medians – planted medians or otherwise in Fairview to better the area, the appearance and the safety of Fairview Road and create more of a parkway environment, which City Council has identified as a priority.
The City is also in the process of purchasing a sewer camera truck. $136,000 was our bid on that and we’re doing a purchase order on that right now. That will be purchased out of the sewer fund.
Mayor: Will that be high definition
Mr. Hawes: It will be the highest quality video that you can get. I couldn’t tell you if it’s going to be high def or not. But it’s going to be the top of the line video truck that’s available right now. And basically that’s where we are on the projects. We have sent out bids on the paving project as well. That is underway and we expect to have those back within about three weeks so we can get underway on that project very soon.
Mayor: Okay. Thank you very much for that report. Anybody have any comments or questions about those items.
Ms. Lawrence: I just wanted to ask a question. How is Mr. Carter after his surgery.
Mr. Hawes: I spoke with him today certainly. He is immobilized. He’s been told by his doctor that he cannot get up and move around except on a very very limited basis, because they are trying to have scar tissue form in the area where the surgery was. They actually want it to form to help cushion some of the movement of the knee cap. So, they’re waiting for that to form and he has stitches that are going to be coming out in about 3 more days. At that point they’re going to re-evaluate if he may be able to be put into some sort of soft apparatus. But right now as I understand it he is in a very stiff apparatus that allows no movement whatsoever. And he has not been released to come back to work. However, I will say he has been doing a fine job of working from where he is in assisting with some of the things that I need from him.
Ms. Lawrence: Okay – good. Thank you.
Mayor: Thanks. Anyone else. Mr. Gecy
Mr. Gecy: Just a quick question about the Heritage Park Phase II that we’re working on right now. We budgeted – I mean we heard a number $400,000 that was budgeted for the project upfit. Do we have a total number after we have all the public works people out there in what we’re going to end up spending. Do we have a cost of what this Phase II is going to cost us above that $400,000.
Mr. Hawes: No we haven’t identified any in kind type of services, is what you’re identifying here. The labor and so forth, I mean we have staff, so we typically wouldn’t assign that to the cost of a project. I can certainly do that if you’d like.
Mr. Gecy: Well I was wondering, is this any different than when we were building Phase I, where Public Works and the City participated on a basis on top of the construction company and then a couple of years later we reimbursed the City for these expenses. Is that a similar situation that will play out in a couple of years.
Mr. Hawes: No I don’t see it as being similar really at all. The reimbursement was for things separate from labor. I don’t believe that we reimbursed ourselves for labor at all.
Mr. Gecy: Well as far as the costs go - $400,000 is going to pay for the materials to do all this up-fitting of the amphitheater and grading and building the stage and….
Mr. Hawes: That is the intent yes.
Mr. Gecy: Okay. So that’s within budget then, is that what you’re saying.
Mr. Hawes: Yes, we’re right within budget right now.
Mr. Gecy: All right good, that’s real good. Thanks.
Mr. Hawes: The number actually for clarification is $475,000 not $400,000 as allocated to the project.
Mr. Gecy: Good
Mayor: All right. Anyone else. All right, thank you for a good report Mr. Hawes.
OLD BUSINESS • Police Vehicle Take Home Policy Mayor: All right next we’ll move to Old Business and you’re going to tell us about the Police Vehicle Take Home Policy. It looks like the cheerleader for that left so I guess we don’t need to talk about it. Go ahead Mr. Hawes, there are too many of them.
Mr. Hawes: And they’re armed. Yes, before you, you have a police vehicle take home policy that is a recommendation of both the Police Chief and myself regarding a policy that would extend our current take home policy. Our current take home policy limits take home vehicles to within the City limits. This would extend them to within the discretion of the Police Chief or City Administrator. And as Mr. Eichor identified, there are some strong benefits to this policy. I know City Council has reviewed it and they indicated at the retreat that they would be interested in considering it, so we have put it before you at this point.
Mayor: All right, thank you. Ms. Lawrence.
Ms. Lawrence: Yes Mr. Mayor, I’d like to make a motion that we accept the policy for Police Vehicle Take Home Cars.
Mayor: Thank you Ms. Lawrence, do I hear a second.
Mr. Larson: Second
Mayor: Mr. Larson seconds. Thank you Mr. Larson. All right, any discussion. All right, hearing none, and I believe this only requires one reading is that correct. I mean this is it. The vote tonight is the vote. So I’ll call for the vote. All in favor signify by saying Aye (AYE) opposed No. Aye’s have it it’s unanimous. All right thank you Mr. Hawes.
• Vision Statement Mayor: Next item is our Vision Statement, this must have something to do with glasses and large type agendas and stuff like that or ….
Mr. Hawes: Yes, for the first time I noticed every single person on council wears glasses.
Mayor: Well I just do it to get along.
Mr. Hawes: You’re all wearing them right now so when you said that I guess this could have something to do with that.
Mayor: You’ll get there one day. Take comfort while you can.
Mr. Hawes: You’re right, no doubt. What we have is a visioning process that was begun with the retreat. It’s a very valid effort to try to identify where we want to go as a City in the future. And it really helps set the tone as we go into the budgeting, into projects. It really becomes an over-arching point of emphasis as we set plans into the future. At the retreat process – in the retreat process we discussed some possible ways to look at visioning. We talked about some of the key components of the City as we see them, a place for family, a place where we want to bring people in from outside. A place of character, a place that’s well managed, a place that is effective government. Things along those lines. What I have before you right now is draft vision statements, that if you’ve had a chance to review them and consider them I’d be glad to further tweak them or let you all talk amongst yourselves at some time, now or in the future. Just put it out on the table to hopefully be able to tie something down that is concrete that we want to move forward with with the vision of the future for the City.
Mayor: All right, does anybody have any comments on this. Well what I recommend is Mr. Hawes, all these are very good. I’d recommend at least to get a conversation started that perhaps you pass among us, I’m not talking about tonight, but at some point in the next few days, a ballot sort of thing that says rate these. Which one of these do you think is number 1 and which one do you think is number 2, 3 and then let’s get a weigh in on that and see, perhaps we’ll all unanimously agree on one. If not, at least we’ll have some idea of what we’re all looking for and perhaps add a line at the bottom that if you don’t like any of these write something better. And let’s get back together on that maybe at our next meeting and see if we can come to some consensus on what we want the vision for our City to be. I found it interesting that our facilitator – the way he got us to think about that was he said if you fly in on a plane and you land here – if you go away and you fly back here and you land here 5 years from now what would you like to see when you step off the plane and I think that’s kind of the way we all crafted these things. SO that’s an interesting way to think about the future.
Mr. Hawes: Well what I can do is perhaps e-mail you each one of you individually the four that I’ve got and you can sort of tweak them to fit what your approach would be and then rank them or something along those lines and then we can come back and discuss that at a future meeting.
Mayor: Well let’s that blank line be for tweaking, because if we all start tweaking these things we never will – what difference is there to rate them – rank them. Does that make sense. So let’s rank these first but provide a section there for someone who is perhaps more eloquent than you or whoever wrote these and see if we can get something else to play with. Thank you very much.
ORDINANCES • 2007 G.O. Bond – Resurfacing – 2 nd Reading Mayor: All right, next item is our ordinances. We’re going to have second reading on an ordinance regarding our G.O. Bond for resurfacing. Tell us about that Mr. Hawes.
Mr. Hawes: Yes sir, the bond attorneys that prepared the ordinance for second reading last meeting left out some important numbers in a blank space on a couple of pages that need to be included in the second reading and we would request that City Council just do second reading again and reconsider the ordinance for second reading and take care of it at this point.
Mayor: As presented to us tonight.
Mr. Hawes: As presented. The information was correct last time it was a technicality with regard to the actual ordinance document that is about 57 pages long.
Mayor: Well would you like to point out those errors and corrections so that we’re all clear what we’re voting on or is that asking too much.
Mr. Hawes: Well – no not at all. It is a – let me call it up real quick. I wasn’t expecting to get into that right at the moment. It is on page – on the third page of your document Article I Findings of Fact – there were two sections that were left blank and that is the sum of – assessed value of all taxable property located within the City year 2006 $49,629,321
Mayor: Hold it I must be on a different page 3
Mr. Hawes: It’s actually the third full page, it’s the first page after the table of contents – let me put it that way.
Mayor: Okay – I was just told that other council members don’t have this.
Ms. Lawrence: It was on the internet
Mayor: Okay – so everybody’s seen it, except for me.
Mr. Holmes: Mr. Mayor the change was just the recalculation of your bonded indebtedness. They had to come up with the exact number based on – and they didn’t have that at the time. The other one is there is one other paragraph that they inserted, which is typical as they go through these that probably wouldn’t mean a lot to you. I read it this afternoon, but it’s just the way they calculate arbitrage but the basic amount of money that you’re borrowing, the tax free portions of the bond, none of that has changed. It was just basically those two blanks that calculated the bond indebtedness and the total value of all taxable property in the City.
Mayor: That’s all I needed to hear. I just wanted to make sure that we all understood what we were doing here so that….Mr. Gecy
Mr. Gecy: Make a motion
Mayor: Certainly
Mr. Gecy: I make a motion that we approve on second reading the 2007 G O Bond and also I’d like to add to this motion that this be put into a separate fund so that we can keep track of it.
Ms. Lawrence: I’ll second it.
Mayor: Okay, thank you Mr. Gecy and Ms. Lawrence. Any discussion. Mr. Gecy
Mr. Gecy: The schedule that we approved Mr. Hawes, do you on your preliminary investigation of costs, do you see any problem at all resurfacing all the streets that are on the list?
Mr. Hawes: Without having a crystal ball and knowing exactly what the bids are going to be I would have to use the experience of what the costs appear they will be, based on the experience of what we’ve seen previously and what the needs are. How they all shake out together. It would indicate to me that the entire bond package should be able to take care of the bulk of those roads that are on the list.
Mr. Gecy: Is there a fear that some of these roads have more problems with them. You know we don’t want to just pave over alligatored roads. If we have to deep – what’s the phrase
Mr. Hawes: Full depth patch
Mr. Gecy: full-depth patch more than we anticipated – is that one of the things that could throw this out of whack.
Mr. Hawes: I don’t see a very high likelihood of that particular scenario because we were very conservative in our estimation of full depth patching.
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